Water Parameter Help

Kjmsmith

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Sorry for the lengthy post but need some input and want to provide as much background as possible.

As a point of reference, my tank is a 90 gallon sumpless with a Fluval FX5 canister filter and Reef Octopus bh1000. I use Marineland LED reef capable lights, 2 of the 48" strips. I know there are much better LED lights on the market today but I have used these since day one entering the hobby 5 years ago and have had what I consider excellent growth. The tank looks healthy with good coral growth (mainly lps, leather and a couple sps). I have a relatively low bioload with only 2 clowns that have hosted in the same bta for 5 years, 1 damsel, 1 foxface, 1 small blue tang, 2 banggais, 1 mandarinfish. The tank has been running for about 3 years after being moved from a 55 that I ran for 2 years before that. The only recent changes I've made was to add another 30 lbs dry marco rock (total of about 100lbs live rock) about 10 weeks ago and is already covering in coraline. All fish and cuc (skunk and peppermint shrimp, crabs, snails) are healthy, eat well and my banggais breed regularly. My 10g nursery tank for the baby banggai circulates with my dt through a hob overflow so essentially the same water.

To be perfectly honest, I usually don't stress over continuously checking water quality and do not monitor my levels on a regular basis other than salinity which I maintain at 1.025 and temp at 78. I do bi-weekly water changes of 10g and I have a home RO system and change the membranes regularly. During each water change I rinse the foam filters and Biomax from the Fluval in tank water - not aggressively - just enough to remove solid waste as I know canister filters are known to be "nitrate factory's". I use quality salt - Aquavitro Salinity. I feed primarily frozen mysis daily (not overfed) and add about 10ml each of phyto and zoo plankton weekly for the corals as well as apx 15ml Aquavitro Fuel weekly (staggered days to the phyto & zoo). I do not dose any other chemicals. This has been my routine for years with no concerns.

Now to the water testing. As I mentioned I very rarely test my water and rely on how the tank and the inhabitents are looking and behaving. I had a Red Sea Reef kit for a few years and it expired/ran out a while ago and so haven't been doing H20 checks for quite some time. The only hint my balance may be out is a persistent diatom presence on the sand bed so I thought I better check my PO4. So I started reading on what test kits were being recommended and ended up going with all Salifert kits.
Well, here are my results over the past 5 weeks:

Feb 13: NO3=75, PO4=1, KH=6.7, Alk=2.39, Ca=600, Mg=1380
Feb 18: NO3~60, PO4=1
March 18: NO3=75, PO4=1, KH=6.1, Alk=2.16, Ca=610, Mg=1320

Obviously I am very concerned with these parameters and yet my tank looks pretty good and has good growth and health of inhabitants.

Since the first results with the high NO3 and PO4 I decided to remove the foam filters and Biomax from the Fluval so the FX5 is actually running empty and just being used to help circulate, thus getting rid of a potential source of nitrates. I am wondering if I can run the tank with only the skimmer and live rock as filters as long as I continue with the 10g biweekly water changes? I have been following the thread on the Fauna Marin Bacto Balls and may get some of these to put in the canister as this may be a good application of these for my situation. I have also done 2 water changes since the first test on Feb 13 and am due for another change in a week. Given the elimination of the canister media and having done 2 water changes with no change in parameters so far, for the chemists in the crowd, what's up? This is why I hate testing my water, I should have saved my $100 and had a good nights sleep :)
 

TORX

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I am sure there will be lots of great advice to follow, but I just wanted to mention that bacto balls will not lower nitrates that high. Maybe 4ppm and 1 phosphate.

Be patient. All the numbers are out of natural balance and will take time to correct and level out.

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Kjmsmith

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Nov 6, 2016
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Fonthill
I am sure there will be lots of great advice to follow, but I just wanted to mention that bacto balls will not lower nitrates that high. Maybe 4ppm and 1 phosphate.

Be patient. All the numbers are out of natural balance and will take time to correct and level out.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
Thanks Torx, so you think I'm on the right track removing the Fluval media and just waiting it out for the nitrates and phosphates to lower with h2O changes?
 

TORX

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Thanks Torx, so you think I'm on the right track removing the Fluval media and just waiting it out for the nitrates and phosphates to lower with h2O changes?
A lot more then that. I just do not have the chance to do a proper detailed post right now.

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Canadianeh

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Sep 20, 2016
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T-dot
So you went with Salifert instead of Red Sea Pro I see.

That Nitrate is really high. Could be human error working on test kit?

So you are doing about 10% WC biweekly. Maybe try to do 5% weekly instead? Or increase the% a bit and see how it is?
 

Kjmsmith

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Nov 6, 2016
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Fonthill
So you went with Salifert instead of Red Sea Pro I see.

That Nitrate is really high. Could be human error working on test kit?

So you are doing about 10% WC biweekly. Maybe try to do 5% weekly instead? Or increase the% a bit and see how it is?
Thanks and yes, after lots of reading decided to splurge on Salifert. Regarding the testing, I made sure all parts were rinsed thoroughly in RO and then tank water. I took the sample apx 6" below the water surface. I followed the instructions exactly for all tests and for the initial nitrate I even did it 3 times because i couldnt believe it! According to these levels things should be dying in my tank, not reproducing! I may have to try increasing the water changes to 10% weekly to see if i can impact these numbers.
 

Canadianeh

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Sep 20, 2016
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T-dot
Thanks and yes, after lots of reading decided to splurge on Salifert. Regarding the testing, I made sure all parts were rinsed thoroughly in RO and then tank water. I took the sample apx 6" below the water surface. I followed the instructions exactly for all tests and for the initial nitrate I even did it 3 times because i couldnt believe it! According to these levels things should be dying in my tank, not reproducing! I may have to try increasing the water changes to 10% weekly to see if i can impact these numbers.
I believe weekly WC is better than biweekly.
 

TORX

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I think we need to do a good write up on lowering nitrates and sticky it lol. Water changes does next to nothing at all for nitrates that high. Basic math considering you have removed the source will explain. If nitrates are at 80, a 50% change will bring it down to 40, then 20, 10, 5, 2.5ppm. That is after 5 50% water changes. Again, assuming that the source is removed. It could take many more changes which will add up very quickly. The page noted above from @shamous113 explains that in great detail. That is a great write up.

Option 2: Biopellets. This is a great, low maintenance option for long term nitrate control. It will also most likely remove the few phosphates you have as well. It is a little more expensive to set up and takes approximately 6-8 weeks to get the desired results. Once it is set up and working, then all you have to do is add pellets every few months as needed. This is my favorite way and the way I normally suggest to use.

Option 3: Carbon dosing. This is the cheapest option but I do not suggest it if you are looking to go long term. All you need is a bottle of vinegar or vodka and a syringe. I suggest vinegar because it is cheaper. Vodka is better for us to drink while dosing vinegar, not the other way around. Follow the chart listed on THIS PAGE. It is something that needs to be done daily and can not be skipped. This as well takes time. Read the entire page that I linked, lots of great information.
 

Nighthawk26

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Waterloo
Thanks and yes, after lots of reading decided to splurge on Salifert. Regarding the testing, I made sure all parts were rinsed thoroughly in RO and then tank water. I took the sample apx 6" below the water surface. I followed the instructions exactly for all tests and for the initial nitrate I even did it 3 times because i couldnt believe it! According to these levels things should be dying in my tank, not reproducing! I may have to try increasing the water changes to 10% weekly to see if i can impact these numbers.

Let's not forget that consistency in our closed systems is almost if not more important than a specific number. I have read and heard of many SPS systems that run numbers with nitrates and phosphates you would think the same you are thinking, but they have slowly and over time had those levels rise to that, and then so consistently stay there that things find a way to adapt and survive. My guess is your system has been running with numbers like this for a long long time.
 

Kjmsmith

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Nov 6, 2016
Location
Fonthill
Thank you for the link and the helpful information. Since discovering the issue of high nitrates I have been considering all 3 options you listed Torx, that is why when I read about the Fauna Marin bio balls I thought this might help, but I will heed your advice and not go there yet as it wont help the high levels I am experiencing.
I understand the limiting concept of water changes as well so I have to think about that one some more. I have read at length the benefits/risks of vodka dosing and have no interest in trying this. As far as using biopellets, is this something I would need to invest in a reactor for or could I make use of my empty Fluval using the media baskets? If flow is the issue through a canister filter, I can adjust the flow, both input and output on the F5.
I am still somewhat bewildered that I have such a problem without seeing any effects on the inhabitants. Is it just coincidence that my water is in such imbalence when I started testing again or is it possible its been this way for some time? Am I on the verge of a crash? I was always under the impresssion that NO3 this high does not sustain life. Inverts would die, coral wouldn't grow and fish would show signs of illness. My male banggai has another clutch of eggs in his mouth and the babies from the last clutch are growing steadily. I thought fish would only breed in ideal water conditions?
Be that as it may, I obviously have a problem I need to address asap so further advice is appreciated.
 

Kjmsmith

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Nov 6, 2016
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Fonthill
Let's not forget that consistency in our closed systems is almost if not more important than a specific number. I have read and heard of many SPS systems that run numbers with nitrates and phosphates you would think the same you are thinking, but they have slowly and over time had those levels rise to that, and then so consistently stay there that things find a way to adapt and survive. My guess is your system has been running with numbers like this for a long long time.
Thank you, sorry I posted just as you did so I didnt acknowledge your comments. The ability to adapt is an interesting theory and one that would help make sense of what I am seeing. I suppose lowering the nitrates slowly would then be very important so as to not shock the livestock in the rapid change.
 

shamous113

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Stratford
@TORX nice summery of the options to fix the issues, @Kjmsmith no matter what you decide to do to reduce the no3 and po4 take your time to make the changes. you don't want to shock you tank, like @Nighthawk26 said your system has adapted to the current levels.
 

TORX

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You would need to invest in a reactor and pump for it. It requires proper tumbling flow that you should monitor. Clumping is a bad thing for pellets. There are several reactors at several price ranges available. Many mod a TLF150 for their systems, or you can purchase one already designed for biopellets. I have used a tlf150, tlf550, a DIY and most recently a Bio-Churn 120R
 

Nighthawk26

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Waterloo
@Kevin Tran , what's the name of your one buddy that runs a shockingly high amount of PO4 and NO3 He's got some crazy SPS. @gtareef, I am pretty sure you know the guy too as I believe he was at Kevin's place once while I was there as well as yourself.
 

Kjmsmith

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Nov 6, 2016
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Fonthill
This is great info thank you. What do you think of my ditching the Fluval and just going with the skimmer for mechanical filtering. Good idea or do I need some sort of filter pads? The biomax I was using in it is actually just doing what LR in the tank does dosen't it?
If I get rid of the FX5 that might help make room for a reactor instead.
 

Kjmsmith

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Nov 6, 2016
Location
Fonthill
You would need to invest in a reactor and pump for it. It requires proper tumbling flow that you should monitor. Clumping is a bad thing for pellets. There are several reactors at several price ranges available. Many mod a TLF150 for their systems, or you can purchase one already designed for biopellets. I have used a tlf150, tlf550, a DIY and most recently a Bio-Churn 120R
Sorry one last question, at least for the moment , you mention people "modify" the PhosBan 150 - what would need to be done to mod this unit for the use I need it for? I have an extra MaxiJet 400 I think should have enough power to use with it.
 

TORX

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