Seems Odd To Me

[Winks]

I know that ABS is not able to be used for potable water according to our plumping codes in, Ontario at least. I also know that it is not rated for pressure, but how much pressure do we really have on our piping systems? It is often said that we should only use PVC for our piping because and i QUOTE "it will leach". This leaching part really gets to me when one of the largest online retailers (BRS to be exact) sell "ABS Plastic sheet" for the bottom of bare bottom tanks. I believe that the amount of pressure in our open systems is so little that ABS would stand up to it. At 1/3 the cost!!


https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/24-x...HG5GdgUTrqcqT2GRmJfwCBbem4kI_GzS_BjmWzaqPHhTk

 

[TORX]

I believe that it is the lack of information is the issue, ABS drain piping is not ANSI/NSF rated and therefor not known if it is safe or not. Being that the drain piping is not rated, there is no standard on it and is also known to leach petroleum. Basically, much like 100% silicone, not all ABS is made equally.

 

[Winks]

So there is a standard on the ABS plastic sheets that are recommended for the bottom of the bare bottom tanks as well as every bulk head ever put into a tank or mixing station? Is it not true that all plastics are made with petroleum products and therefore have the ability to leach? If the abs piping leaches petroleum products would that not show up in our water purification plants? ABS is very commonly used in residential drains. If there were no standards on it then would we not have issues with the waste water plants? So many questions, so few answers.

 

[TORX]

Not a standard persay but ABS as a whole isn't just 1 recipe. Different composites and mixes, different amounts of acrylonitrile, butadiene, styrene and other additives are used depending on what is being created. Any one of those can be used from 15-60% or in just about any combination. Seeing that ABS drain pipe is not rated, it is not tested and 'regulated' as such. It is tested just as drain pipe. If the mix is off, no one cares for lack of better words, there is no health standard or monitoring for it outside of the companies specs which do not include human consumption guidelines. 1 piece could be safe while the one beside it is not. Things like ABS bulkheads are made from particular ABS that meets health standards to be used. Other products can be used from those same mixes.

I am still not sure if I am making any sense lol. I like the Silicone example. There are many types of Silicone that are all listed as 100% silicone however some will kill off a tank and others are aquarium safe.

 

[Winks]

I'd love to see the data on the material that bulk heads are made from compared to drain pipe. I work with plastic day in and day out. I see the data sheets all the time. I can tell you for fact that the same plastic that is used for hospital beds and containers that your dentist uses to put water in your mouth is the same exact plastic that goes into underground piping. It's the exact same!! I have the data on the material. We make all of these parts and all of these parts come from the same plastic. Did you know that dumpster lids come from that same plastic. Recycle bins, road barricades, I can go on and on. The only difference between the between a container for a dentist and a dumpster lid is a slip of paper that cost extra to get to verify that it is food safe. I can assure you that the dumpster lid is the same material mad the same way. As you can see, I don't hold much faith in the fact that someone tells me that one ABS is much different than the next one. Sure we have differences in the data of the plastics, but still the same plastic. PE is PE, PPE is PPE, ABS is ABS, PVC is PVC. etc etc etc. No one is going to tell me that the ABS plastic that is being used in the bottom of fish tank is any different than the plastic that is used to make pipe or used in bulk heads. The amount of money that it costs to get a qualified scientific data on these products would take the price so far out of range that no one could afford them.

JMHO

 

[TORX]

Sounds great, if you have all the data, why don't you share it and be the first to break through the norm?

To my understanding there is a difference, but if you have all the data that proves otherwise, then you by far would know better then me obviously. I am only going off what I have learned through the hobby and as you know most of what we learn is through experiences and shared info with others. If you know the additives, acrylonitrile, butadiene, and styrene levels are all the same in all ABS; then you should know the answer to your own question. The bigger question is then why don't you use if for your current build? If you have the technical and scientific data and know it is fine, then it would be great to see it be used.

Edit: non of that is said snarky, honestly I would be interested in learning and seeing a project

 

[Pistol]

I used abs in my system for almost 10 years and had no ill effects, I would have used it in my new build except my plumbing is all 1 inch and less.
I did a lot of research back in the day and could not find any special ABS, the companies the make plumbing pipe and bulkheads and motor blocks in the pumps we use all buy the ABS from the same producer.

 

[thehvacman]

All my drain lines, the 1 1/2 Syphon, the 2” overflow, and the 2” emergency drain are all abs. Really cuts down on install price and I have never had an issue with using abs for 5 years now. My reef is doing better than ever so really doubt there are any leaching effects. Using pvc for anything under pressure is the best plan.

 

[Salty Cracker]

I was under the impression it was the water movement through the pipe, as opposed to more or less static water movement, that was the issue. 1000gph running thought abs pipe is much more likely to leech whatever excellent things the chinese decide to put into abs these days, than sheets sitting on the bottom of a tank (which I wouldn't use either). Abs is for transporting shit to the shit shack, not water to a delicate marine aquarium.

Just myt $.02, I'm no expert on plastic, but I wouldn't use abs for anything but shit pipe. (we need a :shrug: smiley)

 

[Winks]

I have never once said that it was safe or not safe. My point is, ABS is ABS. It makes no difference where you put it in your tank. My point is , keep it consistent. If ABS is good as a cover for the bottom of a tank, then there is no reason to believe that is not good for your piping. Also to note, if it did indeed leach anything, then you would think that our sewage system would get the same leaching and it would therefore be going to our waste water treatment plants. With all the residential housing that has ABS piping, there would be a significant amount going there.

 

[Josh]

ABS is fine for drain, it wont leech. Abs is more prone to cracking than pvc thats why like hvacman said its better to use pvc for your return. Need to cut costs? ABS is a good option.

 

[Salty Cracker]

I have never once said that it was safe or not safe. My point is, ABS is ABS. It makes no difference where you put it in your tank. My point is , keep it consistent. If ABS is good as a cover for the bottom of a tank, then there is no reason to believe that is not good for your piping. Also to note, if it did indeed leach anything, then you would think that our sewage system would get the same leaching and it would therefore be going to our waste water treatment plants. With all the residential housing that has ABS piping, there would be a significant amount going there.

Right, but our sewage systems are set for removing toxins before water is put back into circulation. This is a government mandate because we still have so many miles of lead pipe still in use in houses and infrastructure (well there's a ton of other reasons). It's also why you can dump your saltwater pool into the drain. We're set for stuff like that (well until it rains and they release raw sewage into the thames "accidentally"). If you're bored, look up "muffin monster". They use those to chew up all the wonderful things people dump down the drain. I mean, the meth makers need to get rid of the evidence somewhere, right?

I just said I wouldn't use it on a drain because of the massive water movement. No residential sewer pumps 1000gph through our pipes. Like copper pipes, which wear out over time via water movement, and we do consume copper because of it. Copper isn't toxic in the minute amounts that would result from pipe deterioration, but it's always a good idea to run your taps for a while if water has sat stagnant against copper...

What is the purpose of this thread though, I wasn't looking for an argument, I just added my $.02 If PVC is available and is potable, why not use it? It's not like it would break the bank with the small amount needed for a tank. I have 2 ghost overflows with 2 pipes on each, and except for the valves I don't think they cost much at all in the big scheme of things?

 

[Josh]

you definitely shouldnt be draining your pool into the storm drain. Im pretty sure every pool since the beginning of time has gone down those drains though lol https://london.ctvnews.ca/city-urges-residents-to-drain-pools-properly-1.3577163

 

[Winks]

My point is the inconsistency! You can use ASB in our tanks or not. It's confusing enough! When someone says you can can't use something in one place but it's ok to use it someplace else. Seems very odd to me as the title of the post indicates. If it's not good in one place then how can it be good in another place. That is my point.

 

[TORX]

My point is the inconsistency! You can use ASB in our tanks or not. It's confusing enough! When someone says you can can't use something in one place but it's ok to use it someplace else. Seems very odd to me as the title of the post indicates. If it's not good in one place then how can it be good in another place. That is my point.

My point was to my understanding and reading on ABS, not all ABS is created equally. Much like not all 100% Silicone is the same. I have been wrong in the past and not afraid to admit it. I have never made ABS or worked directly with the MSDS sheets of individual ABS items, just what I have read online. The same reasons I gave are the same reasons that others avoid it as well.

You obviously have more experience on ABS so then trust what you have and go for it. I would be interested in the actual data on the different products myself as I do not mind being proven wrong ever. I would rather have the best answer possible but no one has been able to provide actual data to prove otherwise.

 

[Salty Cracker]

I'll say that just because BRS does it, doesn't mean it's good for a tank, it just means they figure they can't get sued if people's tanks die. I mean, there's so many things that can kill a tank, that it would be impossible to say "it's the ABS mat". If a company can make a buck at it, they will sell it. I seem to remember WAY back some company selling coral rock made with regular cement, and people couldn't figure out why their PH was 15 lol. Or hey, getting "bonus anenomes" on liverock. Sure it's not good for your tank, but by the time you realize it, the guy could be closed up and selling cars.

 

[Winks]

Here is a little data on ABS. Taken from lab data sheets. Note the highlighted underlined red text. ( I changed the color of the test) You c
an see the formula. If the formula changes then it is no longer ABS.

Formula: (C8H8·C4H6·C3H3N)n
Boiling point: 145.2 °C
Density: 1.060–1.080 g·cm−3
Solubility in water: Insoluble in water
PubChem CID: 24756

 

[TORX]

I did learn one thing, I was wrong about bulkheads. Both sch40 and sch80 are both made from PVC, not ABS.

If you want to know more about ABS vs PVC, I know Bigshow Frags line of sumps and equipment use ABS. I am sure Darren or Dave would be happy to advise or at least provide some guidance on suggestions. @BIGSHOW They have a killer line up from what I saw at the Niagara Coral Show last year. Very sexy equipment and most likely looking that way when/if I go big again when my life gets back in order.

 

[thehvacman]

Abs is used in many prefabricated all in one tanks. The back wall on a bio cube is abs. Abs bulkheads are par for the course. PVC do bulkheads are out there but cost way more. The thing with drain lines is they will grow a bio film over any surface that touches water. The water just flow down drain lines and is never under pressure so the water doesn’t drive into it the same as it would on any line that is under even the slightest pressure. I figured that the $500 in savings to do the drain lines only in abs made sense and Was worth the experiment. Like I said my corals have never been better. I am growing any high end acropora now and my lps have also never looked better. So I would say it works. After 5 years running, if the opposite was true then you would see a gradual decline in health. I really don’t think you have any thing to fear from using abs in any system. I would just stay from using it in under pressure situations.

 

[Winks]

The point is being missed here! I'm not debating if ABS is good or bad for the tanks! My point is in one place they say it's ok, in another place they say it's bad. I could care less if it is good or bad. My point is, it's either good or it's bad but CAN'T be both. It's confusing!